TRANSCRIPT
12 March 2025
ABC News 24 Afternoon Briefing
E&OE
Topics: American Tariffs
Patricia Karvelas
Let's bring in my political panel for today, Independent MP for Wentworth Allegra Spender, Shadow Assistant Minister for Government Waste, James Stevens. Hello, welcome to both of you.
James Stevens
Thanks, Patricia. It's good to be with you.
Patricia Karvelas
Now, James, I spoke with Minister Ed Husic before, and he described the American decision in relation to not giving us an exemption as a 'dog act'. Is that what it is?
James Stevens
Well, it's extremely disappointing, and obviously, being from South Australia, it's particularly acutely felt here in Adelaide because we've got a steel works out at Whyalla that is in a very precarious situation. And any bad news for our steel exports obviously puts a bit of a lump in your throat about what the future might be for that plant and the thousands of people employed there. So obviously, we're hoping for the best as far as Whyalla is concerned, and obviously, we hope that the US administration will reconsider what they've done here. However, I’m just very worried about the ability of our government to communicate with the US administration and whether or not we're missing out on the best interests of our country being served right now, given we can't even seem to get a phone call between our Prime Minister and the President.
Patricia Karvelas
Well, I'll put that to you, Allegra. Obviously, that has been part of the story today, that the US President wanted to go ahead with blanket tariffs. I spoke with Kim Beazley a moment ago, and he said that of course, he didn't want to have a call because he doesn't want to change his mind. Do you accept that?
Allegra Spender
Look, I think it is really disappointing that the US has made this decision, that Trump has made this decision, and I don't think this should be the treatment of a country like Australia, where we've got a good relationship or have had over a long period of time. I think our focus should be on, keeping on trying to have those discussions ongoing and see if we can reverse that decision. But also, more broadly, I think, focus on firstly, how do we assert Australia's interests in relation to Donald Trump and the US administration, and also get our own industries more competitive, which is about doing things like passing EPBC laws that are better for business and for the environment and IR laws as well that work better for business. So, you know, in terms of that conversation, I'm really disappointed that this is where the US has landed, that there hasn't been a conversation, more recently, between the Prime Minister and Trump. And I think the focus has to be on continuing to assert Australia's position and the strength that Australia brings to this relationship and its value.
Patricia Karvelas
James, the Opposition leader Peter Dutton today, said that he could get a deal with Donald Trump. No one has got a deal on this. What makes your side of politics so confident that you'd be different than everyone else in the whole world?
James Stevens
Well, Patricia, we've done it before, of course, under the Turnbull administration. In fact, I remember being with Malcolm Turnbull when he was in Adelaide on the South Australian election trail in 2018. His phone was glued to his ear, talking to Joe Hockey, who had excellent relationships with senior Trump administration officials. And back then, I think it was those relationships, the work that our ambassador had done to build and connect with the key people that have influence that meant we could get the deal that we've got, and that doesn't seem to be the case anymore, which is extremely regrettable. I don't know what Kevin Rudd has been able to do to progress making our case, but today's announcement is that whatever he's done has been unsuccessful. So, we've done it before, and I'm very confident that we can do it again.
Patricia Karvelas
Okay, I have to challenge you on that, on the basis of actually, the very man you've quoted, Malcolm Turnbull, has made it clear that he doesn't think it's the same this time round and that it would be as easy this time round. I mean, isn't he the most reliable person, given he pulled it off last time, and doesn't think it'll be the same this time. And clearly, it wasn't.
James Stevens
I don't think Donald Trump has changed a lot at all since the first time he was President. He might have a little bit more experience the second time around and some different people around him, but he's a dealmaker, and he always has been. Still is very proud of it, and deals with him tends to involve, firstly, direct interaction with him and the senior people who advise him and that he listens to and having a case and an argument and presenting to him with a reason why it's good for him. Now, we're not even getting these conversations occurring whatsoever. I think that's beyond question.
Patricia Karvelas
That's an interesting point. Allegra Spender, I want to bring you in on that question of, is this the same Trump? There are lots of changes, at least, to the sort of ferocity of this administration and it’s kind of organization, if you like. Do you think they're just the same?
Allegra Spender
Look, I think it seems to be quite a different administration than the first time around. There may be some parallels, and I agree that Trump is a deal maker, but in terms of the aggression with which they have executed and the speed at which they have executed the agenda of Trump, I think, has taken the whole world by surprise, and has been quite at a different level to last time. And I think that you can say that in relation to tariffs, you can say that in relation to Ukraine, and you can say that in relation to Elon Musk and Doge and stopping US aid, all these different things. It's just this is a different scale of administration. I feel like this is quite a different administration than it was last time.
Patricia Karvelas
In terms of a deal, Steven Hamilton, who's an economist, has said, today, I can confidently say that the price we would have to pay to avoid having to find alternative buyers for just 0.13% of our exports would simply not be worth paying. James, I mean, would it be worth paying in terms of offsetting the loss there?
James Stevens
Look, I think the real concern is whether or not this is the beginning of a whole range of other export industries that are important to us having similar sorts of treatment put upon them. And to be fair to the Trump administration, they're talking up many broader, wider tariffs into the future. We could get caught up, as we have over the decades I might add in some of these trade wars, where we've done nothing wrong between the US and Europe, for example, in the agricultural space that was very common through the 80s and 90s, and so we could see a lot of other products, not just steel and aluminium, affected, which is why it's so important to make a clear, firm stand and work as hard as we can to make it clear that it's not about the product, it's about the relationship between Australia and the United States. We have a free trade agreement. They have a trade surplus with Australia. We've got a long history in the national security space of being very strong, close, loyal allies. We don't want to be fighting with each other over things like tariffs. We can't let it start with steel and aluminium and move into, say, wine, red meat, and a whole range of other important products and have this turn into a trade war. Australia is a trading nation, and it's vitally important to us that we have and defend and support free trade around the world.
Allegra Spender
I was just going to jump in on that and just say, look, I think from an economic point of view, the greater risk to Australia is not trade with the US. A greater risk is that we are, as you describe, an open trading nation. And frankly, we trade much more with China and with other countries in our region, and the more that they are battered by trade tariffs with the US, which we have very little or almost no control over. That is what is going to hurt us. And so that is why I think our investment should be on building those multilateral relationships in Asia, but also with Europe, strengthening those relationships, and then secondly, building our competitiveness. And I think that's really the point that we all need to be focused on right now, Australia's got a productivity slump. We are going to enter a more difficult time in terms of competitiveness around the world, as people slap different types of tariffs and, retaliation all over the shop. What we need to do is control our own ability for our businesses to respond and our businesses to be effective here.
Patricia Karvelas
Very short answer on this, in fact, just a couple of sentences, starting with you, Allegra Spender, are you entirely comfortable with us being in this AUKUS deal, given the way that we've seen the US behave here?
Allegra Spender
Look, our security relationship with the US goes longer than the time of any one presidency. So I think that these ties are deep, but I think we should make sure that we have scrutiny over AUKUS to make sure that we are making those milestones, and I think assess our defense expenditure more broadly, to make sure that we are able to look after ourselves as well as have those relationships with America and others.
Patricia Karvelas
I'll give you that question as well. James.
James Stevens
Well, Patricia, I'm 100% supportive of us pursuing every aspect of the AUKUS opportunity. I'm from Adelaide. We'll be making the submarines here. That capability will be transformative for the Royal Australian Navy and our nation's ability to defend ourselves and our interests into the future.
Patricia Karvelas
Thank you to both of you. Let's meet again and have another chat. Thanks.
James Stevens
Thanks, Patricia. Thanks, Allegra.